Crowdsourcing continued…
10th April 09
Posted in creativity, crowdsourcing
One week into our Crowdspring experiment and I’ve been pointed to some thoughtful debates on the subject as well as those whose tone resembles an angry mob.
From the latter crowd I keep hearing this analogy that using Crowdspring is akin to outsourcing (complete with images of dank foreign sweatshops). If were going to trade in metaphors, I would counter by labeling this crowd protectionist. (Picture angry immigration opponents rallying to protect US jobs they probably don’t want in the first place.)
This isn’t outsourcing and this isn’t bootlegging. This is simply about an expanded marketplace. And as long as your product is best-in-market, you’ll always have best-in-market work at your door.
One last thing I need to note as some are accusing us of being exploitive and that bothers me greatly. (MORE BELOW)
For BBH Labs, this is definitely not about undercutting rates. The easier thing for us to do would have been to call on a number of established designers we’ve worked with or simply kept the project inhouse with our more than fantastic design team. But exploring new approaches is why we have “Lab” in our title.
Now, that said, one week into the process, I’m having one or two issues.
First, many of the designs being presented seem to be slapped together without much care or thought. As a client, it is taking considerable time to filter through, which adds a cost to the bottom line of my company. Our initial interest in Crowdspring is an attempt to find young talent, so I accept this process as more efficient than if we had to conduct portfolio reviews in the analog world.
The bigger issue I have is fair remuneration. The Crowdspring design process is fully transparent and this is great. When I comment on my likes and dislikes regarding a specific design, other designers take note and follow suit, sometimes, very literally, borrowing the basic typography of one designer and then building off it. Fantastic from the client’s perspective: I’m getting the best of the individual and the best of the crowd - all for one price! Now the problem is that I can only award one person the job and it isn’t fair for me to reward that person 100% for work that may have been built off another person’s work.
Hence my current conundrum halfway to deadline.
I realize Crowdspring is only eight months old and the online opensource community not much older. But when money is on the table, a winner-take-all approach doesn’t seem to hold true to the process.
Maybe this is a problem that Crowdspring with the help of the design community can come together to help solve?
The experiment continues. Have a great weekend.
32 comments on “Crowdsourcing continued…”
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Adam Glickman
[...] This is the logic that BBH seems to have realized. Unsurprisingly, it isn’t going as smoothly as it would have done had they hired Duffy & Partners. BBH’s Adam Glickman: [...]
I am a creative at crowdSPRING and the issues you brought up with the transparencies have been the subject of much discussion on the forums. They are a young company and they are always trying to improve. I like that they really listen to the issues of the creatives and buyers, and try new things. This is how the Pro project format came to be.
Many buyers who post projects have similar situations, but they do not recognize the blending of concepts the way you do. All they care about is that they get the design they want.
I am hopeful that your project will help bring the kind of attention to crowdSPRING that will benefit all who participate.
Thanks,
Audree
You know you can add several awards, right?
So, here’s a question for you, Adam. Do you believe unpaid creative pitches are a healthy practice in our industry? We’d like to hear your reasoning, if so. They’re great for clients who get all that free thinking, sure. But isn’t the concept seriously antiquated—an incredible waste of agency resources? Imagine if all the time that went into unpaid pitches went into pro bono accounts or existing agency accounts. We know pitches are necessary, but we’d like to see the best agencies in the world (ie. BBH) help lead the entire industry away from unhealthy practices. We should demand we’re paid fairly for our minds, and you’re in a position to shift things for the future.
Though it’s on a micro level, this is the very problem you’re propagating by crowdsourcing your logo. You’re saying unpaid creative pitches are okay—in fact, you wholeheartedly embrace them. There are much better ways to find new talent to design your logo. This was a lazy way out.
You know, there’s been a lot of heated discussion about the ethical dilemma of using crowdSPRING as a resource. As one of the designers on CS, and, full disclosure- at the request of Adam Glickman, I’d like to share my positive experience.
First: I am a creative director at an advertising agency with a 25 year career in print, broadcast, outdoor and interactive. My background is in art direction and design. I am well paid. I have several national (US) and international clients. And, I am bored to tears. I am frustrated with advertising, design and business as usual. My book of produced work is pedestrian at best. But, because of my track record, I could probably work the rest of my career doing what I am doing –but why?
There are a few rare shops that get those wonderful, rare assignments with clients who have the understanding and the budgets to support that work and to fuel innovation. But, like most people, I work on the less than glamorous clients in less than glamorous categories often with budgets dictated by accountants far removed of the conceptual world of innovation. crowdSPRING has afforded me the opportunity to use actual companies with actual needs as my own lab. It has led to several interesting concepts. I have also started deeper ongoing conversations with start-ups who seriously need to develop a brand, but don’t have the money to engage a respected firm. I think of my work as creative venture capital. And, for the first time in years, I am having fun. I am putting out work that I truly believe in. I am emotionally invested. Without the constraints of client expectation of work vs. billable hours and entrenched conventions, I am able to explore new territories. Some CS “clients” connect with the work, some don’t. That’s okay, because my explorations cost them nothing. It was an investment of my time. That time is not wasted. I am a step closer in perfecting my craft.
Second: I must be doing something right. I have gotten multiple request for my resume and portfolio-including one from BBH Labs. How about you?
but for all the cushiness you say you have in your job of the past 25 years what happens when your employer realizes that they can “get it done cheaper” through this method you’re treating as a hobby? popularize it and it will catch on. there goes your 150K salary in exchange for a project here and there that pays $200-$500 with no benefits, and youre up against 20,000 other people for those same scraps. that sounds like a tough life after a quarter century of being taken care of even in lean times.
look, at the end of the day change doesnt happen overnight, but i’m the third generation in my family to do this whole ad thing for a living and i can tell you it changes drastically in 50+ years. were having so many billings stripped from the agencies that provide us with work as is do we as a DESIGN based community want to add fuel to the fire? in an age where design is becoming second fiddle to customer engagement strategy and planning i know i dont want it to. dont make the visuals expendable by saying ANYONE can do this, because they cant.
i’m shrugging it all off right now because it’s new, and im HOPING that people realize that this is not the way, that there needs to be strategy and purpose behind creative, that you cant just own an apple computer and a downloaded version of photoshop and do this for a living (and judging from about 92% of the entries i see on crowdspring i’m assuming it’s mostly people with non marketing related day jobs) but it’s picking up steam and if it keeps doing so it has the chance of becoming a real problem.
if you are old enough (or were around people old enough) to remember the pasteup and mechanical artists of yore, you’ll see this is kind of the same thing. they were called artists for a reason, they did an incredibly difficult job that took lots of skill and honestly, talent. ever wonder why its called the design department and not the art department post early 80’s? it’s because were not artists, all the hard work is done on a little box. (take this as you will but i’m firm in my belief about this)
opening up our profession to the masses will waterdown the quality, the small mom and pop restaurant never needed this, every town/city has a local designer that is more than happy to make your logo business card letterhead website for a fair rate because they are in that small town market, so that excuse is out the window, this is exploit labor and unfortunately a large portion of the design community cant see past their own 5 year plan.
i hope that changes.
XO
PS just reread and saw you’re a creative director, assuming youre making over 150K at that point. just pre-correcting myself.
It’s just a try and for a really, really few designers a chance to make it faster than ever before.
The quality of work provided by “the many” is very low.
When everybody “can write” (by blogging), the real writers stand up even more, by contrast.
It’s going to be the same with design.
Egotist,
BBH Labs was created, in part, to take a look at the overall industry terrain as it exists today (complete with unpaid agency pitches, creative crowdsourcing sites, etc) then to begin exploring ways to lead the industry toward better practices, as you suggest.
I would only ask patience by designers who are upset by our decision to use Crowdspring. As you would seem to agree, this is only a single, complex piece in a much larger, much more complex puzzle representing media as a whole.
We are only getting started here…
[...] BBH Labs having issues with the ‘crowdsourcing’ [...]
The problem with this sort of model is there is little in terms of accolades to distinguish a professional designer from a hobbyist. For example, a contractor, doctor, and real estate agent must pass certain exams or certifications.
Meanwhile a designer could be someone who went to art school, understands form & craft, and can draw. Or it could be someone who went to a Photoshop tutorial site and knows “some cool effects with a lens flare.” While I believe I can judge the difference, its hard to tell the difference on the outside to a layman when both people say “I’m a designer.” Hence the state we’re in– people posting on Craigslist or so-called Crowdsourcing sites saying they have a great project that needs a logo and they’ll pay $100 for someone to “plug it in.”
Good luck filtering through all the logos with lens flares that are just “plugged in.” You get what you pay for and ask for.
[...] few days ago, Adam Glickman at BBH defended his company’s decision, saying it suited the progressive nature of the brand the logo will represent: “This isn’t [...]
Darrel,
Thanks for the feedback, though I respectfully disagree.
I am (barely) old enough to have gotten my first real job back when it was called the art dept. and dont remember it with the same fond nostalgia. There were talented designers as well as trained monkeys back then, same as now. The difference is how much cheaper and quicker the output became as photstats became scanners and mice replaced x-actos.
Desktop publishing tools caused the demise of a few companies while launching the careers and businesses of a whole generation of creatives.
For the same reasons, I also disagree with this line: “opening up our profession to the masses will waterdown the quality.”
Quality editors remain in demand regardless of Final Cut, quality directors remain in demand regardless of countless great amateur youtube clips, etc.
And quality designers will remain in-demand regardless of Crowdspring. For the most part, my sense is Crowdspring is currently a business resource for the local businesses and design shops you reference. This just allows them to find one another outside their geographic local.
Nonetheless, I appreciate your arguments, but think this guy nailed the flaws more accurately:
http://mattgonzales.net/?p=300
i think you missed my point completely, no offense.
when advertising is predominately controlled by holding companies and accountants cost cutting methods do in fact threaten entire departments. bottom line.
but this is your blog, who am i to correct you?
and as far as matt gonzales “nailing it more accurately” keep in mind my home page says art director / visual designer his says copywriter / journalist
a bit of an “outside looking in” perspective that isnt as connected or vested in the problem, and also a guy who uses words for a living, so lets not apples and oranges it here if you dont mind.
i have been reading about this whole crowdsourcing thing for some time now (like im sure we all have).
at first, i was on the “anti” side of the debate. i totally see the points of how anyone with a pirated version of photoshop who can edit their own myspace pictures now thinks they are a designer. and with 1423.32 other submissions, it seems almost random that one’s work would actually get chosen, especially since many others would accept a much smaller fee for their work. and the work is most likely slapped together without any relevant thought or consideraion of the company needing the logo. anyways, i am just repeating thoughts that everyone against crowdsourcing have already voiced.
but as i look more into it, and think about it from my own perspective, i think i am reversing my stance. i do not think this cs movement will “bring down the industry” or necessarily devalue design.
there will always be a need for good design. large companies and people “in the know” (not necessarily designers, but many marketers and intelligent business people) realize that good design has a place at the grown-ups table. good design definitely has an effect on the consumer, even if the consumer doesnt realize it (granted, a bad product will almost always negate any good design), which, in turn, has an effect on the bottom-line of the company.
many of the smaller businesses that cannot afford a big agency may turn to cs to fulfill their needs because they realize they do need some injection of good design to differentiate and build their brand/company. this is actually *good* for our industry — it proves that we have made an impact on the general public, they are starting to realize that design is important. as the public gets more savvy in this regard, they will come to realize that having some (insert random day job here) person slapping something together in photoshop on the weekends is not going to differentiate and elevate their business like true good design can. (hell, maybe this random person actually is cretive but never realized a creative career?)
if you can produce effective and creative design, why not supplement your day-job income and use cs?
i think i just may start up a crowdspring or incspring account this weekend. i have some unused concepts and other random ideas floating around my brain, so why the hell not?
oh, forgot to mention . . . i think crowdsourcing and spec work are two different things. from what i gather, with cs, you post things you already created and someone buys it or not.
with spec, you talk to the “client”" first, and so do a bunch of other “designers,” then you create work specifically for them, which they then may or may not pay you for.
spec sucks, but if i have an idea and spend my own free time working on it for shits n giggles, why not post it and see if someone wants to give me money for it?
Kudos for being open-minded, adam. I’m not sure where crowdsourcing is headed, but it has momentum and that makes it worth investigating.
BBH Labs appears more intent on orchestrating a media spectacle than on finding an effective new brandmark.
Anyone in branding at a half decent level is familiar with the maxim, ‘Your brand is not your logo’. So it doesn’t make sense for a division of an international heavyweight advertising agency to place a key component of their brand experience in the hands of the ill-informed rabble available on for hire on Crowdspring.
Perhaps BBH Labs assumes that it’s brand story is well known, that people are interested enough to find out or doesn’t actually have a unique strategy to leverage difference with a new identity.
Advertising tends to attract media mavericks, winging it with a gift of the gab and a knack for coercing the not yet jaded and spent into producing half-decent work on occasion. It is not filled with the slower moving and less expensive but more meticulous, thoughtful and sophisticated brand consulting strategists who think in much longer terms than the high turn around, high churn and hype-dependent advertising world.
Or, perhaps those at the helm of the BBH Labs brand know all this and are working a section of the online and creative industry to build brand awareness, working this brand identity malarky out as they go along to see what happens or are just as naive as many of the participants on Crowdspring.
Whichever way BBH Labs is an innovation unit. This is more likely a media experiment than a serious approach to finding a new brand identity.
A.
Permalink: http://snipurl.com/g0cbl
You said it, Andrew. This is not about a new logo.
How do you get attention & intereaction from online creatives for your new blog?
Do something controversial.
I guess it worked. I’m here, after all.
Sure you get attention but you do it at the risk of looking…
1. disingenuous.
2. clueless.
BBH Labs landed the attention of Johnson Banks, a big fish in the brand consulting world. Johnson Banks are well versed in brand strategy and identity and could easily steer BBH Labs through a creative challenge.
Looking at BBH Labs’ generic identity (and clunky name) as it stands, it looks like they’ve invested heavily in a ‘no personality’ brand identity strategy. They don’t seem to have any intention of developing a new identity despite the controversial grassroots buzz surrounding the possibility of a new logo. I think they’ve started a complex reputation driven process which will become very difficult to manage.
This looks like a lightweight error with heavyweight consequences to me…
A.
Very interesting story to follow about crowdsourcing.
I believe Kluster tried to do an innovative method of compensation on the crowdsourcing model. The company did not survive, but I wonder if they will come back to life in some capacity.
They got some serious buzz at Ted a couple years ago.
sorry for the poor grammar above - it’s a bit late at night
(nearly 1 am)
Ugh. The smarmy better-than-you club attitude of agency professionals is exactly why I left agency life and joined the “rabble”. I value an anonymous marketplace, as most agencies I’ve worked at are sexist, ageist and racist. Yes, I mean you. Even BBH Labs says they are looking for “young” talent - or do you mean “new” talent?
I decided I’d participate in crowdsourcing before I formed a judgment on it. So did BBH Labs. Good for them, they are truly willing to try out new models. Sure, their experiment smacks of a publicity stunt - but I can’t fault them for that. Any press is good press.
BBH Labs was not the best crowdsourcing client, offering scant feedback and ratings in the public forum. Perhaps they did work with people privately though - I can’t say.
On another note, I did notice a lot of pissy creatives cluttered up the contest with bad-on-purpose entries. Fair enough, but I’m not sure if that’s an effective way to protest.
Overall, I think BBH Labs and CrowdSPRING are the winners here.
http://snipurl.com/g3eq5
A.
“Business strategy requires marketing knowledge best bought from specialists. These specialists are unlikely to be found by crowdsourcing.”
Still kind of an “us and them” attitude? Just sayin’.
Sure. Us and them, the strategists and the designers.
Of course there is an overlap of skills (designers as strategists and strategists as designers) but these skillsets tend to exist in different but interdependent realities, the linguistic and gestural. Strategists tend to think texturally and designers visually.
Top level brand consulting requires these two specialists to work together to manage the complexity of brand identity. The Crowdsourcing model isn’t sophisticated enough to harness these skillsets over the range required for branding. Crowdspring only offers logo design, which is a very small area addressed by one of the two specialisms.
As per an earlier post above, ‘A logo is not a brand’.
A.
[...] Labs has a lot to say about the experiment at their blog. They’ve received over 1,500 entries and admitted defeat in trying to sift and rate them [...]
[...] BBH Labs is having a few issues with the crowdsourcing process, and published a blog post mentioning the spec model [...]
[...] http://bbh-labs.com/crowdsourcing-continued [...]
[...] while now: I’ve read Jeff Howe, checked out numerous crowdsourcing sites, exchanged emails with BBH Labs, and interviewed the CEO of Poptent. There are more crowdsourcing examples surrounding us than you [...]
I like the last comment. The whole companie’s bio data is on it.